@Lone Poet

But what is right and what is wrong?

Okay, I'll go with that..

You're drunk again or sick!



I'm not Lone Poet actually...

Well, It's pretty easy to know what is right or wrong. It's distinguishable without any kind of religion or something and just with logic and humanity. the point is to choose the right one and to do it. if we were successful in this part, the world wouldn't be like this. When you're in a dilemma, you know what is right with your logic and humanity, but your "Whatever you like to name it" tempts you to do what has profit for you. I think religions came to control the tempting part... but I'm not talking about whether they're successful or not. and so laws.

No you aren't Lone Poet are you? Lone Poet had posted:

"If we never experienced the consequences of our decisions, we wouldn't be able to make difference between right and wrong, and we could never improve ourselves by consciously choosing the right choices.
If we never experienced the consequences of our decisions, we wouldn't be able to make difference between right and wrong, and we could never improve ourselves by consciously choosing the right choices."

So that is why I was asking Lone Poet the question but you answered me so I will answer you!

If logic is used in the context of "right and wrong" then who is to say what is right and wrong for you might not be what is right or wrong for you.

It seems from what you wrote above you are talking about morals. If you are talking about morals then you also assume what you would consider moral and what I would consider moral the same.

Of course there are laws in different countries to tell people what is right and what is wrong and there is also a matter of religion, which is actually huge when dealing with right and wrong, but if I was to disagree with some of the laws and did not follow any kind of religion, would I know what right and wrong are?

Right and wrong can be subjective. If a person is greedy and owns a company is it the right thing to cut his/her employees benefits? Well of course if you are a person who cares for the employees then it is wrong, but if you are the owner and you benefit financially and keep the company going believing it not only has a higher profit margin but you keep employees employed then that would be moral for you.

I think rights and wrongs are the same everywhere for everybody. What makes the owner to think about him/herself or the employees? If you ask him/her is it right to fire you employees, make about a thousand people jobless just for yourself? he/she says it's right but what can I do? See, He/She cares about him/herself(these he/shes are really annoying ) I'm not a religious one but the only example I can say is about an Islamic thought/law that says if you would get into trouble if you say the truth, you have to say the truth. because you would (or at least could) get someone else into trouble. I you tear someone apart in front of a soldier, a priest and an islander and after that ask them about it, all of them will describe it disgusting...

About disagreeing some laws. Are you sure that all laws are accepted with logic? or in the other hand, Are you sure that the reason why you disagree is your logic? Human isn't complete actually...

And about the first one if I understood it right. That's why religions came. and again I have to say I'm not talking about whether they're successful or not. consider a child in one of the unknown tribes in Africa, for example. When he/she opens his/her eyes, sees the parents eat human! So how could he/she know that it's bad or wrong? That's why religions came. because they say "If you're not in a good condition and place to know these (rights and wrongs), We'll let you know". and for the developed ones say "Man is incomplete and there's a God that knows everything. So listen to his/her words to be alright". or something like that... I'm not about whether religion is necessary or not. that's just the reason why they came...

See, if i had my backspace key in real life. As things went wrong, i would correct them. But looking BACK, i am exactly as i am because of what i was, And changing what i was would, in theory, Alter what i am. And if i wasn't who i was, who would i be now?

Would i still be in the closet? Would i be friends with the people who've fallen away? Would i have my new friends?

So many unanswerable questions, so many more than i can imagine. I'd rather not risking a worse reality by making what WAS real, unreal.

Hmmmm using the backspace key in my life... dang that would be a long backspacing period... Seriously, I agree with most ppl... I am who I am today because of my past. I cant change it, I have to deal with the decisions made and move on..... Learn from those past mistakes, cherish those past moments of joy, enjoy life as it was meant to be.. There have been terrible things that have happened in my past... as I'm sure it's just like everyone elses....But because of those decisions I have made... I feel I am a better person.. for those in the forum who know me... you know Im a honest person.. who loves my friends...even if they are millions of miles away.... or even those close at hand... I'm happy to be me... in every aspect... Now, I can learn from my past... to make my future better... as anyone else can... I have a poem I wrote... but its on my pc at work... that is awesome but kind of religious about the path of life... perhaps tomorrow I will share in the Poetry thread... if not... and u are a friend on my facebook.. then I should remember to post it there....

Well of course what you are saying above is right or wrong in your mind, not everyone elses' and no, right and wrong are not universal.

Example:

Killing one for the good of thousands or millions.

Holding those of a certain race to make sure the people living that country are safe (i.e. the Japanese during WWII and Guantanamo Bay from 9/11 on).

I never said anything about laws being logical, I just said they existed. I never said if I disagree with one I am using logic. Logic is merely a combination of arguments in order to sway one to anther's way of thinking about whatever the topic may be. We are using it right now, well mostly. So is it logical that I should agree with everything you said above?

Moral = Subjective stance

You feel it is "wrong" for someone to care about him/herself when others should be considered and it upsets you so for you it is wrong. Doesn't mean it is for everyone else. If I agree with you about that then I am seeing is subjectively and therefore it is "wrong" to me as well.

Have you ever taken a course in critical thinking? It was one of my favorites in college! It's like a big debate class .

Back on track:

If one person uses "the backspace key in life" then it is quite possible that person changes the course of all our and all other peoples in this world lives, the condition of the planet, and lots of other things and it would take a very long time to name them all, but then who knows?

I wouldn't use it.

Well I can see the benefits, If you kill me, you've done the good. and if I kill you I'll be sentenced...



I never said this and don't want it and I don't know where you brought this...



Well, no. but I guess it's hard for everyone to have a debate with you... I think you're a person who has a new idea every 15 minutes. Well, I was just kidding if it hurt. and according to the "question from" topic you can see I'm not in a good mood to have such kind of talking.

@razor

You can say whatever you want about me I don't care! Yes I do have a new idea all the time, more like every 10 minutes!

No I didn't know you didn't want to have the discussion. Have a great night/day!

I do not know about you guys but I would use it extensively for many idiotic things I have been doing in my life

This is absolutely true, but they can as well haunt us froever...people can make really bad mistakes and sometimes being sorry or apologize is not enough...

+1

I agree with you, this is something that I've been thinking about lately.
Some mistakes can mark you forever... :/

On the other hand, some of them made you who you are now.

of course but if you have the backspace key, is not said that you have absolutely to use it...and maybe you would just do better something that went dramatically wrong or made suffer somebody else.
It is true that mistakes help us grow up, I wouldn't personally use it for each of my mistakes (this would mean writing back my entire life) but some of them yes, absolutely yes.
Maybe the best thing in the world would be that we all accept our own mistakes and be ready to forgive other's mistakes, as much as we wish others would forgive ours....eventually in human beings more than the backspace key would be more helpful the "forgiveness" key

@Ivireanu - Yes, that's what i wrote too - some (not all off course)

@paoletta - And again agree with you. You said it so perfectly.. "forgiveness key"...
It's just that burden sometimes is very heavy... but that's life I guess... We are learning to live with it, and trying to move on with all the lessons, hoping that we can find understanding in other people too.

I think the 'forgiveness key' would void the meaning of forgiveness. It's not something automatic, it's something that must be gained, it's at the end of a path.

yes but how many times people should have forgiven and they haven't? too many, and I put myself in the count as well...considering that it does too rarely come as a spontaneous act, maybe it should be there a key not to make it automatic, but to remember people that this is a possibility, exactly as the backspace key is not an automatic key, but is there to remind you that if you make a mistake you can correct it the forgiveness key would be there to remember us to forgive, even not being automatic, so not void of its meaning...I hope I wasn't confusing

@paoletta - I understand and accept your point, though I dare to disagree.

no problem, we are all different in this world and it is good to have different points of view so we can compare our ideas and see things from other perspectives, can be that one day thinking about all this long topic I might change my mind, or not...

Same here. As long as we stay open-minded, it's all good

@Lisa

Yes that is a great point!

@paoletta

If you change one thing that you have done in your past you will change your whole course of life. There would be no changing only one thing. Also if you were to go back in time and change something you did, don't you think you might be changing what happens to others as well?

@Ivireanu

Exactly ( Whatever happened to someone or what choices one made is what the person has become).


Nope.......no backspace key. It would be a mistake.

The world would be in chaos!

No... really? I dunno

I think that whatever happens - must happen. Everything itself has a meaning and so by simply removing it from life means ignoring this meaning.

Well. . . .That'd be alot of mess. I think everyone would be spamming it. Then we'd be all going backwards in the street. . . maybe we'd even reach the point where we never existed or something. . . similar.

go back to the first day i found out Poets of the Fall so i can feel that incredible experience again.

Go back to Finland and lose my return ticket

I would erase my life x)

Well...would anyone be where they are today. Or who they are...?

I would probably be a size zero supermodel or a Nobel price winner! Perhaps homeless or the worst dictator ever.



Or not.